Fresno Famous

you wont be able to continue legislating our religious and our l

I guess that day will be the end of the world, Armageddon awaits

"The wisdom of the wise and the experience of the ages are perpetuated by quotations.", Benjamin Disraeli

Our day is coming!

The day is coming when the U.S. Supreme court will prevent you from writing discrimination into the California Constitution. The day is coming when the courts will require you to accept a secular government that represents all of the people, not just the ones with religions and lifestyle choices you approve of.

You can certainly hang on to your bigotry and your hatred for those who are different than you, but you wont be able to continue legislating our religious and our lifestyle choices for us anymore.

That day is coming very soon!

operative words are: man & woman

if the gay condition were natural there would be a way to reproduce "gayly"

but alas, to procreate, you have to do natural sex, get a turkey baster (nasty) or go for "artificial" insemination. either way you are disproving the gay lifestyle as "natural", otherwise you would accept your condition & get on with your lives, but subconsciously you want to be "normal", so you need to play "house", get "married", raise a "family"

you have to rationalize your condition into "normalcy"

"it ain't over, til it's over", Yogi Berra

You forgot someting

"I've been called a bigot a homophobe, a hater and a lot of nasty ad hominem things, for saying that kids deserve at least the opportunity to have a mother and a father." - tylerpenney

Oh, boo hoo hoo! Poor wittle tywerpenney, hims got hims feewings hurt!

You forgot one more name you've been called:

LATENT HOMOSEXUAL

established by Cretan "sages," of preventing overpopulation in t

I guess it works, seeing that Huffington left Araiana over that

"the institutionalized practice of homosexual relationships between men and boys may date as far back as 650 B.C. and that it was apparently a premeditated means, established by Cretan "sages," of preventing overpopulation in the upper classes. It then spread to other areas of the Greek speaking world. "Culture" was transmitted in Athens by the "best" men "training" the "best" boys. Homosexualists believe that it was the means by which the "Greek miracle" provided the foundation of Western civilization. This cultural transmission is referred to as the "pedagogical function of pederasty." (See Pedrasty and Pedagogy in Archaic Greece, William A. Percy, 1996, and Homosexuality in Greece and Rome, Thomas Hubbard, 2003)." from: http://opine-editorials.blogspot.com/2006/12/pederasty-homosexuality-in-...

"it ain't over, til it's over", Yogi Berra

not by me

i'm just challenging the validity of your linked studies.

in fact, i, along with at least one other have spoken out against ad hominem attacks on this very thread.

tylerpenny, not to shift the discussion to you, but some people may have also been put off by a term like 'garriage' that you've used. they may find it demeaning to have the term that is currently used for their lifestyle, marriage, trivialized because they are homosexual.

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What I've been called so far

I've been called a bigot a homophobe, a hater and a lot of nasty ad hominem things, for saying that kids deserve at least the opportunity to have a mother and a father.

linked studies

so, after reading through that link, we can basically discern that a community that hasn't been allowed to marry by society doesn't think of marriage in the traditional way. really? groups that have been told by society that they can't engage in long term relationships haven't? huh.

you know what, a lot of people don't think of marriage & family in a traditional nuclear family sense. and, a lot of heterosexuals engage in promiscuous behave, multiple partners, and all the behaviors being ascribed to homosexuals.

and, the link basically said that there isn't enough data to prove or disprove the quality of family life in a family that consists of homosexual parents. your big point was that there was mountains of evidence to prove that children were better off with the traditional family. your link, does not prove that.

Ya know I'll be glad when

Ya know I'll be glad when it's Nov. 5.

What about the child of a gay man and a lesbian?

What about the child of a gay man and a lesbian?

Do obviously latent homosexual homophobes like tylerpenney believe such children don't exist?

Because, right here in the Bay Area and across the globe, growing numbers of gay men and lesbians are turning to each other precisely to procreate.

I dare say such a model could, in fact, be the next step in human society's evolution. All children wanted. All children planned.

Just because we're gay, lesbian or bisexual doesn't mean we're sterile!

A phrase pops into my head

A phrase pops into my head after reading through this...something about making a mountain out of a molehill? (C'mon, that's funny.)
I would challenge some of the data in this paper - like the rate of fidelity among married men and women - but would also draw many conclusions from this in support of my decision to vote no on 8.
For example, same-sex couples are marginalized and not currently encouraged to stay in a relationship, so it's no surprise that many don't. This paper also backs up the claim that Prop 8 really isn't about children, since it shows less than 10% of homosexuals living in households with children.

Re: stats

Here are your mountains of evidence:

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02

stats

your mountains of evidence about children doing better with a father and a mother are irrelevant. the studies are comparing dual parent households to single parent households, not traditional to homosexual.

i challenge you to link to a study that definitively demonstrates your alleged mountains of evidence in this area.

"So why should we vote for a

"So why should we vote for a law that could deny children the opportunity to have a father and mother?"
Really? The proposition denies such an opportunity, eh? I missed that somewhere. Voting no on Prop 8 isn't "voting for a law," it's rejecting an amendment to the state constitution.
Again, if the issue is about children and growing up in an "ideal" situation, don't target people who want to share in a loving relationship that's formally (and legally) recognized by others, target those who jeopardize such relationships: divorced parents, alcoholic parents, abusive parents, absent parents, ignorant parents, hairless parents...
Wait, none of that is covered in Prop 8? It's off-topic? Yeah, you're right. I vote no.

Re: So its about children now

I'm sure you did turn out fine! Lots of people turn out just fine despite less than ideal conditions in the family. I'm sorry you were targeted by your peers, that is just wrong - there was nothing you could do about it!

The problem is that as a whole - children do better with a father and a mother - who can disagree with that? As I said in my post there are mountains of evidence that shows this.

So why should we vote for a law that could deny children the opportunity to have a father and mother?

So it's about children now.

What about me? I was child once. And as child, I had *gasp* a gay parent! You should now that I'm a raging psychopath now. I wish someone had stepped in and protected me from my two mommies.

Seriously, though. This is absurd, as so many people have pointed out. When I was a kid, what caused me the most trauma was not having gay parents, but having bigoted peers, neighbors, teachers, etc. As a child, it would have been nice if the government would have recognized my parents' right to be a family together, but they didn't. Last month, my moms got married, and I couldn't be happier for them.

By the way, I'm straight--and happily married myself. When I got married, I'd known my husband for only two years--my moms had been together almost a decade. I'm not pregnant now, and I have no intention of getting pregnant for at least three years. My moms have already raised two kids together.

Gay people are not the problem--society is. Let's stop all of this charade about protecting the family and saving children and sin. Live and let live.

Nobody hates you!

A lot of these comments try and paint anybody voting Yes on 8 as a "get to the back of the bus" right wing nut job. This is so wrong.

First of all - being Gay is not like being black, or white or anything else. Its a lifestyle. I can't be racist against a kleptomaniac. The bible (don't hate me for quoting the bible) says: "love the sinner, hate the sin" and that is exactly what we are talking about. To the majority of god-fearing people - homosexuality is a sin - (I know, sins don't exist anymore! As long as your not hurting anybody its ok! ;() Most sane people can agree our society has basic rights and wrongs. I can't just go out and steal something from somebody. Society says thats wrong. If I give to charity, pet a puppy, give blood, etc I am doing "right" Its these basic rights and wrongs that keep us from tearing each other up. A lot of these can be seen on the 10 commandments (gasp, I said something from the bible again, I'm so out of date!) homosexuality is seen as a tear in the moral fabric of our society.

What gets me is that people think that gays right to marry trumps the right for children to at least have the chance to be raised by a mother and a father. Most kids are lucky to have a father and a mother, but we shouldn't cut the off at the pass.

Rosie O’Donnell’s adopted son Parker told his mother:
“I want to have a daddy.”
Rosie Replied:
“If you were to have a daddy, you wouldn’t have me as a mommy."

All of this is dredging up

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rhetoric

perhaps as humans they deserve your concern. but, no one is asking you to show concern or respect for those you disagree with. stormwysper is pointing out that ad hominem attacks are considered a logical fallacy. ad hominem attacks lack substance. you would be better served to stick to the merits of your argument, or pointing out the errors in the other side's argument rather than throwing out random insults (and arguing with people that agree with you.)

i find that they divert people away from the issue.

"The reality is, they want

"The reality is, they want us dead, and because of that, they reveal themselves to be among the most selfish people in the world."

Which is why I switched from being a Republican to a Democrat. But by attacking them using their tactics, you sink to their level. You are spewing as much hate as they are. Aren't you trying to portray yourself as better than them?

Civil unions do NOT grant the same rights.

Civil unions, contrary to the lies spread by the homophobes, do NOT grant the same rights as marriage.

They are nothing more than the legal equivalent of being made to sit at the back of the bus.

Look where THAT got us.

No more Mr. Nice Guy

"Does attacking him make you feel that much better? Attack what he says, but by directing your insults at him personally detract from anything constructive you might be trying to say." - Stormwysper

The radical, right wing homophobes are attacking our God-given, American-born right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

They won't let us serve openly in the military, they want to take away our kids, they don't want kids to learn about homosexuality and how to protect themselves from attacks or disease, they want the right to fire or evict us, they preach that we are going to Hell and, now, they want to nullify our marriages to force us back into the closet into sham marriages.

With whom, exactly? Their daughters? Nieces? Sisters?

Surely such illogic belies any real concern they feign for these girls, for if they did care, they wouldn't want gay men like me to pretend we love women.

The reality is, they want us dead, and because of that, they reveal themselves to be among the most selfish people in the world.

For that reason, they deserve neither my concern, nor respect.

actually, prop 8 would not

actually, prop 8 would not allow 2 consenting adults to get married, if they weren't male & female.

voting against prop 8 allows two consenting adults of any type to maintain their constitutionally guaranteed right.

and, like many straight couples, gay couples can have children via artificial insemination or adoption. or, like some heterosexual couples, homosexual couples may choose to be married without children.

"In every area of life,

"In every area of life, cognitive, emotional, social, developmental ... at every phase of the life cycle ... social evidence shows that there are measurable effects when children lack either a mother or a father. ... The evidence is overwhelming. Mountains of evidence, collected over decades, show that children need both mothers and fathers."

If this is what drives your argument, then we should be banning divorce. And parental negligence (i.e., actions that lead to one parent's imprisonment) - anything that breaks up the traditional family structure.

Please explain then just how

Please explain then just how prop 8 denies children this right. Show me where in the written law it says anything whatsoever about children. Prop 8 denies gay couples the right to marriage. It has nothing to do with children.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything about children.

Gay Marriage allows two consenting adults to get married. 2 adults that love each other and want to spend their lives together.

Marriage has nothing to do with children. Plenty of children are born without their parents being married. It happens everyday.
Not everyone that gets married wants children. I know plenty of childless married people.

How does gay people getting married create children without fathers and mothers? Gay people getting married doesn't create children, so your arguement makes no sense.

RE: brattybrat

Marriage is not only about "breeding" . Its the fact that children born into this world deserve a mother and a father. Conditions will always exist because of death or otherwise that prevent this. But we should not pass laws that prevent children this fundamental right.

RE: brattybrat

"Marriage has nothing to do with children." Really? Nothing?

" its also about responsible

" its also about responsible procreation"

Bullshit. I know lots of married couples that don't want kids. They got married because they loved each other and wanted that commitment.

And responsible procreation my ass. If that was the case then why don't you spend the money that was used to campaign for this and try to teach teens about early pregnancies?

Your excuse about this being about biology instead of bigotry is a thinly veiled one for your dislike (I won't use the word hatred since it's been beated to death on these forums for the past week or so) of gays.

So to you marriage is

So to you marriage is something that should only be for people to have children.

What about me, I have a medical condtion that makes me unable to bear children. You are telling me that I shouldn't get married because marriage is only for creating babies.

What about others like me? Your basically saying that none of us should get married because we are unable to have children. Reasoning like that is just ridiculous. Not everyone wants or can bear children.

Marriage is about 2 consenting adults that love each other. It's not limited to people that want to breed.

I think you just set a curse on me?

RE: tylerpenney, you willl real what you sow

It feels kind of weird to receive a curse from somebody. Never received one before. I read this comment in a crackly scary voice. It was funny...

Does attacking him make you

Does attacking him make you feel that much better? Attack what he says, but by directing your insults at him personally detract from anything constructive you might be trying to say.

"Homophobes like you couldn't be more pathetic."

I've said on here before, but I love to repeat myself.

Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone.

Reply Anything to do with Children

Wow -

Anything to do with children? - marriage is not only about living with a significant other, its also about responsible procreation. Last time I checked gays can't procreate - so whats the point? They already have domestic partnerships - which allows them all the same "living with significant other" rights.

tylerpenney, you willl real what you sow

You will reap what you sow. Either your wife will realize your lack of sexual interest is a sign that you, yourself, are a closeted homosexual; she will leave you because you brought home a disease from one of your men's room trysts; she will leave you for a woman; you will leave her for man; or your gay son or daughter will deal with your bigotry by committing suicide or getting hooked on drugs or alcohol.

Homophobes like you couldn't be more pathetic.

Don't blame biology for your petty hatred, either, because if society based marriage on whether or not couples could procreate, then the infertile and the impotent would not be allowed to marry.

Please explain how prop 8

Please explain how prop 8 has anything to do with children.

Huh?

"Its not about equal rights, but the rights of children."

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. There is no mention of children in the prop. So how can it be about children's rights if they aren't even mentioned?