Fresno Famous

Ok

Thanks for clarifying that, and yes, my words were distorted. My point was poorly made. No you did not read that correctly. You might recall the sentence right after that, "Take away that dream and replace it with, no matter how smart or hard you try you'll only ever be able to make so much and you take away the dream." That applies to whoever no matter what job they have. Try to imagine that to some people the ability to make that insane amount of money is what drives them. Without that dream, all of a sudden there is no point in trying for some people. You never know, someone on the assembly line might have that dream, and that's why they are trying so hard in the first place. It isn't greed for some, it's goals.

Thanks for the link, I still have more to read.

Diablo

I asked; Wait, did I read that correctly?

I was stunned by what you wrote. "What I meant in taking away ambition is that people have dreams of making money, a lot of money, shit loads of money."

If I read your words correctly, then ambition is limited to those that dream of making "shit loads of money." Then I clearly don't understand your point. If you think I have distorted your words, I would ask that you clarify what you posted.

I think that the ambition to make shit loads of money is what has led us to this place and time of a faltering now sputtering economy and government bailouts. Which just happens to be tied together nicely with deregulation that undercut the Glass/Steagall act and forced commercial banks to compete with investment banks.

I offered up the RS article because you indicated that you wanted to understand the subject deeper and discuss it.

It seems like

you want to turn words into meaning something other than what they are intended. You shouldn't be "stunned", and instead try to understand where the view is coming from. If you want to take everything in the worst way possible that's fine, in fact I am trying to understand why you are compelled to feel that way. Right now, I'd like to know why you are "stunned" so dramatically to speechlessness, I want to understand you.

I'll read the article thinking you left it at "stunned" cause you really have no point in saying that in the first place.

Diablo

Wait, did I read that correctly?

So screw turners making $20-$30 an hour have no ambition as compared to those who "have dreams of making money, a lot of money, shit loads of money."

I am a little stunned.

My reason for mentioning the Japanese is to show that there is a difference between ambition and greed. US CEO's pay themselves huge bonuses even when their companies are on the verge of insolvency and as they reach their hand out for government handouts (more corporate welfare). That is insane. And the response, make the union guy take a pay cut.

I'll end on this note. Have you read the Matt Taibbi article in Rolling Stone magazine? it is very informative. Click HERE.

Ok,

here is a big problem, they are getting 20?-30? bux an hour plus benefits to turn screws. I don't think it's realistic to think that someone expect to be able to make millions by turning screws, or think that they are somehow indispensable. I believe the original intent of unions has been lost and has morphed into an unhealthy entity that encumbers the companies. Does one truly garner ambition to make millions turning screws, or does one aspire to make millions by being a business person or an entrepreneur?

On that note as well, I'm not sure how to determine how a CEO should get paid. But I do know there are stockholders and so on to answer to, if a CEO is doing bad it doesn't seem that the stock holders a CEO has to answer to should be letting that go on. Seems like here is where some of that restructuring needs to happen.

(I must be in the dark about a lot of that stuff, and I'm not pretending to know it all. This is just stuff I understand at this time.)

What I meant in taking away ambition is that people have dreams of making money, a lot of money, shit loads of money. Take away that dream and replace it with, no matter how smart or hard you try you'll only ever be able to make so much and you take away the dream. I don't know how many people think that way, I'm not trying to make millions, I know that much. I just don't believe in those kinds of boundaries on what people aspire for in that regard, and I do believe in honest business. If a person can be so good at building and creating an honest business that they can make enough money for lifetimes that's great for them, I'm happy for them.

The lesson seems to lie on both sides, the union and the CEO, and the gov't bailing them out doesn't let the lesson be learned. What is a reasonable compensation for a CEO? What is a reasonable wage for someone that works on the assembly line? Either way the corporation has let things get out of hand on both ends and now it's caught up, and the lesson lost.

It feels like with all the places going out of business, being that they are old businesses operating on an old structures, a new way of conducting business needs to be born. Somehow, people's needs are still being met by other businesses. It seems like the internet is a big part of that evolution as well.

My father worked at a sewer plant, he never expected to make millions. He just knew he'd always have a job.....cause no matter what happens in this world, there will always be shit...

I'm not sure that using Japan is a fair comparison, their mortgage interest rate is like 1.9%. Comparing their economy to ours is not a fair comparison. Don't forget segments of their economy, what is similar to our social security will be bankrupt as well. I would agree that they are much more aggressive with firing from the top down. I believe there the american corporate way of doing things could really use the lesson. The Japanese take greater pride in their product and build strong teams and have great teamwork within the companies.

I'm not trying to argue so much as I am trying to understand the subject deeper, and discuss it. I might not think like you, or know as much as you about specific things, but I still have the ability to rationalize and learn...

Diablo

Cutting union jobs

"Manufacturer's hands seem to be tied thanks to unions cause they can't even cut jobs. So they're stuck having to keep people employed making products no one wants to buy right now."

Diablo, nothing is further from the truth. Companies like GM have laid off thousands of union workers despite their contracts. Those that remain are covered by the union contract for wages and benefits.

I find it rather interesting that you are arguing that if we cap pay of CEO's and management that this would "totally take away anyone's ambition to succeed and excel." It is rather ironic that you haven't employed this thinking to union workers when you advocate that they take a cut in their wages and benefits. Seems to me that you are taking away their ambition to succeed and excel.

Of course, even if we ignore the hypocrisy of the argument that pay caps are good for labor but not management I would direct your attention to the Japanese car market. Japanese car maker CEO's don't make nearly the money as their US counterparts and yet they produce cars that consumers want to buy. Toyota is the worlds #1 car manufacturer.

Here is an portion or an article that I thought you might find interesting.
"CEOs at Japan's top 100 companies by market capitalization earned an average of around $1.5 million, compared with $13.3 million for American CEOs and $6.6 million for European chief execs at companies with revenues of higher than $10 billion...

You're right oh pedi-1

that was one of those gramatical catch phrase errrs.

From what I understand the union workers enjoy pretty fat checks and benefits. Why doesn't it occur to them to help the situation with new contracts? A few people I've asked seem to be of the opinion that the cars would be more competitive if it didn't cost so much to make them. Then to top that the quality isn't the best. The Manufacturer's hands seem to be tied thanks to unions cause they can't even cut jobs. So they're stuck having to keep people employed making products no one wants to buy right now.

I think you're right though, those cats at the top continue to see bonuses which would be equivalent to keeping those workers employed.

I don't think there is such thing as too big to fail. A line in a song I like "in order to win I gotta lose sometimes".

If you start putting caps of anykind on the top level that would totally take away anyone's ambition to succeed and excel. I do agree there seems to need restructuring. It seems like the oportunity to learn how to deal with this all is being lost, and the answer that's being dished is, the gov't has my back. That's not something I agree with either.

Diablo

Big Three?

I was under the impression that it was more like the Big Two. And I think that any company that is too big to fail, like AIG in the insurance/finance industry and GM in the manufacturing industry should be restructured and broken into smaller companies.

The problem I have with bailing out the auto industry is that the union worker will lose more than the executives who are ultimately responsible for the business failing.

The people at the top, the CEO and management, are responsible for deciding which cars to build, and how much to pay themselves in bonuses even when the company takes a header into the shallow end. The union isn't responsible for the failures of management. Management is.

But fear not, the unions will be told by the Obama administration that the same contract protections afforded to the AIG executive's bonuses written into the Bush bailout and protected in the stimulus bill does not apply to middle class union workers and their negotiated contract protections like wages and health care.

Making the head of GM resign isn't socialism, it is more akin to fascism, ie. corporatism. Sadly, Obama is following the lead of the previous administration.

I don't agree with the

I don't agree with the bailout of the big 3. They should have been allowed to fail. The auto industry killed itself, when they started making junk autos and paying high as hell wages and benefits.
If they made quality products people would buy them.
The UAW needs to scale down their wages and benefits.
I also don't agree with the government forcing the resignation of GM's CEO. It sets a dangerous precedance and seems to be a step toward socialism. Very scary indeed.