doesnt the bible say it is ok for me to stone my wife, if she is an adultress? does that still count? will we tolerate that? what else can when pick and choose from our religion buffet? Will it be a loving one or a hating one? what are the core principles of your faith? What are the orgins of marriage, not the christian church. look up the actual purpose of marraige, a transition of property "women" and now the definition has shifted to a union sanctioned by god, and furthermore a union granting specific rights to couples, once heterosexual, but now homosexuals refuse a second class citizenship and another rise of people being treated a second class citizens refused to be treated. We are human beings first with rights endowed to us not by GOD but by the founding fathers which as sinners themselves held a view to create equality no matter what changes they could not forsee. seperation of church and state!

your argument would be all fair and good if you voted no on a pro gay marriage. your vote mean that you to change the constitution to make gay marriage illegal. i like how your against " unnecessary toleration" weather or not gays are leagl allowed to get married or not, dont' have any thing to do with how much you accept it. i against alot lot of things that are leagal. i know just becouse something is against my beliefs isn't thew same thing as should be against the law.

but hey it passed so congratulations to you and all the people that dont under stand the differents

no matter what you and the butt-fucking Brady bunch think about it, YOU STILL LOST! We win, YOU LOSE! Any more questions? That's just the facts of life.....man and woman style!

dear famous guest,

for the sake of truth telling, it was actually the whining, sniveling opponents to gay marriage that wanted a vote. that passed an unconstitional law against it (prop 22) that was rightfully stuck down by the court. so, the whining, sniveling opposition to gay marriage put a constitutional amendment on the ballot (prop 8) which passed. it is currently being reviewed to see if it passes legal muster.

"And this ecelction SPOKE LOUDLY"

as for speaking loudly in an election, how loud is your voice when you lost like 7% since the last proposition vote? seems to be getting more quiet every day. and 53% is a majority, but it's a lot less of a stunning victory than the 60% from prop 22.

furthermore, by your logic, the whining, sniveling opponents of abortion should stop putting propositions on the ballot becuase they keep losing. are you calling for that?

Wow! Whining, sniveling, bitching gays! Let’s ask ourselves this, when was the last time a gay person tried to talk you into becoming gay? Who's forcing toleration now??
Marriage has already been turned into a joke by everyone. If marriage is really that important lets take a look at the divorce rate and see what we can do about fixing that.
Religion cannot stand change unless it's profitable or in the case of Jesus, the prophet Mormon and countless others, the old ways are no longer acceptable and new rules need to be made.
To me it sound like the opponents of prop 8 are the whining, sniveling, bitches.

To all the whining, sniveling, bitching gays-
The people of California have spoken. YOU LOST!
First you forced us to tolerate your ways, and wanted a vote! Now you lost that vote, overwhelmingly I might add, and now your still whining?
FACE IT! Most Californians are sick of your B.S.
Your nothing but a bunch of SORE LOSERS! You will never win. Get over it. you will never force your ways on people. We will not stand for it, And this ecelction SPOKE LOUDLY ! NO GAY MARRIGE ALLOWED!!!!!

i have done considerable studying of the bible and jesus christ considering i was raised catholic and went to catholic school, where we, guess what... studied the bible and jesus christ.

and... i fail to see your point, or "the truth" that is supposedly contained therein. enough people have gone into how the bible is bullshit, just beliefs, no proof. if you believe that crap, that's your right, but it's your problem that you're brainwashed, not ours.

homosexuality is not a choice. but you can prove me wrong if you want. prove that homosexuality is a choice. also prove that god exists, opposes gay marriage, and that the bible is totally accurate.

your beliefs do not justify legal discrimination against others. so you can have your beliefs but you HAVE NO GODDAMN RIGHT TO TAKE RIGHTS FROM OTHERS, especially using the constitution, which i thought was supposed to guarantee rights, not take them away.

about tolerance, the nazis didn't want to tolerate jews and look what happened. the KKK did not want to tolerate black people (or jews, gay people, and others) and look what happened.

Prop. 8 is about equal rights.

Just as the 1st Amendment allows you you spout off bullshit that is born of hate and ignorance. But I don't feel like tolerating it so I guess that means your right should be revoked then based upon your so called logic.

Epic fail there.

If you were to do any studying on the Bible and Jesus Christ, you would discover the truth. If you read back through your rant, you stated that we should go 'live where there's no gay marriage'. That is here...and we plan to keep it that way. I don't have any kind of hate for gays and lesbians, but that doesn't mean I disagree with your CHOSEN lifestyle. I do not approve of it, and I don't have to tolerate it. That is what Prop 8 is...it is to have the rest of society tolerate gay marriage. No thank you. You can do whatever you want behind closed doors, but marriage is a sacred thing and is meant for a man and a woman. Yes on Prop 8 should show all of you that the MAJORITY of people DO NOT AGREE with your chosen lifestyle, and we don't have to tolerate it.

It's funny, I'm sure you don't have a problem accepting gay's tax money. Tax money that will go toward public schools that people like you want to block any education regarding gay marriage from. Tax money that gets taken out of gay folks paychecks at a higher rate (because they can't get married to eachother and get taxed as individuals). Tax money that will surely (combined with yours and mine) go toward the influx of legal costs from all the new lawsuits that will be filed to fight this measure. California is too broke to be alienating anyone. Besides - a measure that fights for the "protection" of marriage is laughable in a state that has a divorce rate of over 50%. If you want to protect marraige - ban divorce. Prop 8 won't stop gay men from getting married or having children. Instead of marrying each other - they'll just marry your unsuspecting daughters instead. Can we say DOWN LOW!

*

In 1948, the California Supreme Court recognized marriage as a fundamental right when it became the first state court in the country to strike down a law prohibiting interracial marriage. It was the only state supreme court to do so before the United States Supreme Court invalidated all such laws in 1967. The California Supreme Court held that:

Marriage is ... something more than a civil contract subject to regulation by the state; it is a fundamental right of free men (people).... Legislation infringing such rights must be based upon more than prejudice and must be free from oppressive discrimination to comply with the constitutional requirements of due process and equal protection of the laws.[10]

We (gay people) are not asking for anyone's TOLERANCE. That is just condescending. We simply want the same treatment under the law that every other person receives. If you believe that sexual orientation is a choice, then you really don't know what you are talking about. You are simply choosing to believe something that will make you feel better and/or justified in YOUR choice to deny others of equal treatment under the law.

Anyone who says that they have a choice in who they love is obviously bisexual, so they DO have a choice. I am not bisexual..I don't have a choice and I don't want to be treated as a second-class citizen in my own country.

Please do not try to justify your bigotry by using innane and outdated arguements. Just admit that you don't like it and you don't want other people doing it. That, at least, would be more honest.

I wholeheartedly agree that all laws should be written to avoid discrimination against persons on the basis of race, color, creed, disability, and other factors beyond their control. I think homosexuality is a choice, and no where in the same category as the above factors. - Famous Guest

Obviously YOU made the same choice to be straight, didn't you, Famous Guest?

Was that before, or after, you copped a feel on your fellow Boy Scout in your little pup tent?

At the end of the day, SO WHAT if being gay is a choice?

Do we punish, outlaw or clinically study white, blonde women from making the "choice" to love big, black men?

That said, Christianity and Republicanism is a choice, too.

Why are THEY worthy of protection, but not gays?

"I BELIEVE THAT SAME SEX MARRIAGE IS AN OUTRAGE EXSPECIALY IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD. BECAUSE IF YOU DO AND YOUR GAY YOU KNOW THAT SAME SEX MARRIAGE ISN'T IN THE BIBLE AND YOU WOULDN'T DO IT IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED.I ALSO BELIEVE THAT IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD THAT HE GIVES YOU A CHOICE TO BE GAY OR STRAIGHT. AND IT REALLY UPSETS ME WHEN I HEAR SOMEONE SAY YA IM GAY AND IM A STRONG BELIEVER IN GOD IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT BECAUSE IF YOUR GAY IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT. ANOTHER REASON IM VOTING YES ON 8 IS BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT WHEN I GROW UP AND HAVE KIDS I DON'T WANT MY KIDS TO THINK IT IS OK TO BE GAY BECAUSE IT'S NOT, IN MY OPINION." - Famous Guest

Blah blah blah.

I worship a gay God. That's my right, under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

So THERE!

I wholeheartedly agree that all laws should be written to avoid discrimination against persons on the basis of race, color, creed, disability, and other factors beyond their control.

I think homosexuality is a choice, and no where in the same category as the above factors.

Discriminating on the basis of chosen behavior is sometimes acceptable, and necessary. What if I am born a kleptomaniac....can society refuse to discriminate against my thefts? Should the state sanction this person's natural tendencies? Even though a person has a proclivity toward bad behavior does not mean that he is compelled to act upon it.

This said, everyone messes up and does things wrong. Homosexuals are not to be hated or feared. Humanity is in this thing together, and we need to have compassion for all people.

Just my 2 cents....M

and what is god doesn't exist? what if the end of the world comes, and jesus doesn't have his second coming, and god doesn't come down to select you and bring you to heaven; and there's no god or afterlife, only the life that you lived, and you spent it passing legislation that denies rights to others, and you spent it hating others without logic or reason? and your life is spent so it's too late to go back and treat others with kindness and to love your neighbors as yourself? then what?

and if gay marriage upsets you, then move somewhere where there's no gay marriage. set up a fundamentalist compound where you don't have to interact with gay people. go live with all your ignorant, closed-minded friends. but you have NO RIGHT to tell others how to live their lives. you're entitled to your beliefs, but in a democracy that's based on constitutional rights for all (at least in theory), you have no right to pass legislation that denies rights to others. your narrow-minded morals shouldn't have a basis on the law or on how others live their lives.

you haven't shown yourself capable of independent thought. it seems like you spout off whatever your parents or your pastor or the prop 8 campaign propaganda tells you. you have no real reason for opposing gay marraige. there is no reasonable defense for banning gay marriage. there's only pure ignorance, pure hate, pure discrimination, pure closed-mindedness, and lack of independent thinking. i feel sorry for you. i hope you're not a zombie-robot-sheep your whole life. i hope you wake up, think for yourself, question authority, and follow the golden rule.

*

Too bad you believe in using caps.

And "when you grow up", which I pray you do, you don't teach your kids how to use caps either. That or hate people.

I BELIEVE THAT SAME SEX MARRIAGE IS AN OUTRAGE EXSPECIALY IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD. BECAUSE IF YOU DO AND YOUR GAY YOU KNOW THAT SAME SEX MARRIAGE ISN'T IN THE BIBLE AND YOU WOULDN'T DO IT IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED.I ALSO BELIEVE THAT IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD THAT HE GIVES YOU A CHOICE TO BE GAY OR STRAIGHT. AND IT REALLY UPSETS ME WHEN I HEAR SOMEONE SAY YA IM GAY AND IM A STRONG BELIEVER IN GOD IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT BECAUSE IF YOUR GAY IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT. ANOTHER REASON IM VOTING YES ON 8 IS BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT WHEN I GROW UP AND HAVE KIDS I DON'T WANT MY KIDS TO THINK IT IS OK TO BE GAY BECAUSE IT'S NOT, IN MY OPINION.

!!!! VOTE YES ON PROP 8!!!!!

I think you should look into all the rights that married straight couples receive and compare them to the rights that domestic partners receive. If every right is 100% equal and straight couples do not receive more rights then I guess Yes is O.K, but I believe when you look into it we only receive a few rights that straight couples receive.

The same can be said of biracial couples many decades ago--you can tolerate them but let's not make a law for them. Why? Because you don't agree with their actions?

What exactly are they doing that you think is wrong? Does it have anything to do with your life? Does it harm you? Have they harmed other nations that have given them rights? Have their countries been destroyed by such laws of tolerance?

By the way, sometimes a law is necessary to ensure tolerance. I think MLK would agree with this.

You say "I will love them and treat them properly" but let's not give them any rights? This is contradictory.

I propose we vote NO on all propositions. The Government wants you to be confused and thereby subservient to their agendas and they do so by "proposing" all this bullshit, more laws, laws, laws, laws like cancer, till there is no more freedom and liberty and no more free thinking society. The Constitution in 1787 was and is still sufficient for self-governance, responsibility, accountability, prosperity, equality and health. America needs to arrest the insanity heaped upon us by the Democrat and Republican machines in DC, State & Local government, do away with all propositions and remove the perpeTRAITORS from office. Use your common senses people, you don't have to buy into this crap! It comes at you in the guise of Gay issues under prop 8 but is just another mask of the same monster Big Government.

against all hierarchy and authority!
against all domination and coercion!
against all laws!
against oppression and discrimination!
for equality, free association, and autonomy!

If the Shit hits the fan, it won't be jack booted thug Gay people knocking on your door in the middle of the night.

Wake up citizens and stick together.

The fact that Gay people exist is not a threat to your family values...the fact that the Dick Cheney's do is.

This WILL not happen to Gays. It will happen to Christians.

people are entitled to their (bigoted) opinions, but when they try to push their authoritarian dogma and laws on others, that's when i become "intolerant" towards these people.

if you don't like gay marriage, then don't marry a gay person. but you have NO RIGHT to dictate how others live their lives, whom and how they love.

i don't see how banning/opposing gay marriage is different from banning/opposing interracial marriage, or marriage of african americans (it was illegal for slaves to marry and for interracial marriage).

against all hierarchy and authority!
against all domination and coercion!
against all laws!
against oppression and discrimination!
for equality, free association, and autonomy!

"A conundrum for you:

If marriage were just about love, then why can't siblings marry? Why can't a father and daughter marry? They are 2 consenting adults who love each other, but the government tells them they can't marry. (And don't say it's because of poor genetic crossover, because we let people with hereditary genetic disorders have children.)

Answer: We don't let siblings or parents marry their children because it is wrong. Morally, it is wrong." - Famous Guest

_____________________________

Here's a conundrum for you, sister:

Who does a hermaphrodite---you know, those born with both sets of genitals, which are about 1 out of 100 births?---get to marry in your crazy, gay-obsessed little world?

'Cuz, no matter what you say, either the dude or the chick the hermaphrodite marries is gonna be at least a LITTLE gay, OR, you doom such people to lives of loneliness.

Then, too, you could say that hermaphrodites should marry other hermaphrodites, but then what do you get with that?

More offspring that are hermaphroditic or predisposed to it. How do you know this wouldn't actually be a leap in human evolution? Or, if you prefer, how do you know you aren't holding back God Almighty's magnificent plan for humanity?

"I'm wondering when they are going to round up all the gays and put them in to camps and eliminate them?"

remember in Nazi Germany they outlawed pets dogs since they wanted all the young & married to raise children for their army's and not to be burdened with family dogs and pets.

For the record, gay civil unions do NOT grant the same rights as heterosexual marriage, only limited numbers of rights.

And even if California joined the rest of the civilized world in granting full legal recognition of gay marriages, it still won't make the federal government acknowlege our marriages.

Ergo, gay households will pay more in taxes that are then used by heterosexuals for THEIR marriage and child tax breaks.

Is that fair?

Hell no!

Homophobia is so GAY! I mean that, literally. Clinical studies have been done that confirm both Kinsey's famous mid-20th Century findings, as well as what we gays already know about those who hate and fear those of us who are openly gay:

that homophobes are, in fact, latent homosexuals or bisexuals.

So, if you're a gal whose married to a guy who can't stop obsessing over the gay civil rights movement and/or homosexuality in general, you seriously need to ask yourself if it's worth your own health and happiness---and that of your kids---to contribute to the very conditions that may have led your man to deny his true feelings about other men, enter a sham marriage with you and loudly vocalize his hatred of gays by voting for an immoral, illegal law like Proposition 8.

The same goes for dudes who are married to homophobic women.

Barring that, ask yourselves, do you REALLY want to craft an American society that is indistinguishable from the gay-hating Arab Muslim society we are at war with?

I hate these propositions. All of them. From Left, Right and Center they are all laws that could never pass muster in the legislature. Can you imagine an Assemblyman or a State Senator trying to introduce legislation keeping gays from marrying? Ridiculous. They have already
debated and voted the issue ad infinitum for years in Sacramento.

But, for extremist groups who cannot get a toe-hold in Sacramento there is the proposition. If you have a million dollars to pay people to gather signatures outside grocery stores all up and down the state you can get a proposition on the ballot, no matter how looney.

All the propositions this year are looneytune laws that could never pass muster in the legislature. They are circumventing the democratic legislative process to pass these laws that will be hung up in the courts for years anyway.

What we need is a referendum against propositions. But, if I have to
I'll vote NO on Prop. 8 because it is the religious right trying to impose their wacky religious laws upon the rest of us secular citizens.

Homophobia is gay!

Vote No on 8!

I do not support the government putting more constraints on what I can and cannot do, who I can and can not be and be treated as a human being.

No. Let people be who they want to be and be treated equal.

Diablo

to martin, these are good points, but marriage is not the route to take to get them. you can't force people to change a cultural institution.

this is not the same as the civil rights movements because as the author of this blog points out--there are no basic rights involved.

the government is in the business of promoting families (giving them tax incentives etc), because families provide stability.

anyways,

there is a good post on this here:

http://prop8discussion.wordpress.com/

also malta would you be willing to repost this blog as a comment on mine? you bring up some good points.

all cultures have different standards of who you can marry and who you can't marry. some cultures say that you can't marry outside of your religion. some cultures say that you can't marry outside of your tribe. some cultures promote the marriage of cousins to build strong family bonds.

Gay marriage cannot just be about love. Marriage is more than that. Don't believe me? A conundrum for you:

If marriage were just about love, then why can't siblings marry? Why can't a father and daughter marry? They are 2 consenting adults who love each other, but the government tells them they can't marry. (And don't say it's because of poor genetic crossover, because we let people with hereditary genetic disorders have children.)

Answer: We don't let siblings or parents marry their children because it is wrong. Morally, it is wrong. There are morals without religion. I don't think ignorance, hate, or bigotry is why the author of this post is voting YES. I think he's voting YES because he believe in it. You can't say someone is closed minded for exercising their right to democracy, their opinion. THAT is what the constitution is about.

I'm voting YES on Prop 8! Save Marriage, Save Family, and Save the Education of Our Children.

in my opinion, no one is asking you to tolerate anything. you are being asked to maintain the equal rights of all of california's citizens, or to deny rights to a segment of society.

Yes, domestic partnership is *similar* to marriage, in that many of the rights that come with marriage also come with domestic partnership in this state. But there's still a big difference between being able to be married and being able to be partnered. There's a power dynamic implied, the power of the dominant to hold the non-dominant at arms' length.

You say, "I think that legalizing gay marriage is just a way for gays to force people to tolerate their lifestyles." But I wonder if you'd still agree with this sentence--or at least with the rhetoric of it--if we changed the subject. For example:

I think that legalizing mixed-race marriage is just a way for miscegenators to force people to tolerate their lifestyles.
I think that giving women the right to vote is just a way for feminists to force people to tolerate their lifestyles.
I think that

I guess my question is why should anyone have to force anyone else to tolerate them? And why is it okay to separate "gays" from "people?" Or "gays" from "family?" Gay people are people. They have families. They tolerate you. Of course, they don't really have a choice. But still.

Look. You also say that it's hard to tell who is right in this debate, and I have to disagree pretty adamantly. There's one side of this debate that seeks to deny rights to thousands of Californians for no real reason but fundamentalism and ignorance, and there's one side that wants to ensure that people who love each other can legally and publicly declare that love.

I have to agree with Martin on this: vote however you want to. But don't pretend that you're voting yes for any other reason than fear and hatred.

Megan

Reason why they are not the same:
1) Marriage is recognized in all 50 states, Domestic Partnerships are not. They can be dissolved at any time and not valid out of the state they were made in.
2) Married couples have rights in medical decisions and healthcare choices for their loved ones. Domestic partners may only be recognized in their home state. Go out of state and suffer an injury, good luck having any rights.
3) Long history of legal rights in regards to married couples. Legal law on Domestic Partners still being developed so you can't say that they are legally equal when right now there are so many questions about how to resolve their cases in court.
4) Tax breaks are different for Married Couples vs. Domestic Partners. That alone grants economic advantage to the legal status of being "Married" vs. "Domestic Partner." A good example of this is filing tax returns. Married can file jointly, Domestic Partners must file separately.
5) Social Security, Veteran's Benefits, and Retirement are not shared with Domestic partners but are with married couples. So again economically, they miss out on a lot of money that they can't have.
6) Child Support is only binding in state for Domestic partners. So if you have a child and want to escape child support, just move out of state. You can't do that being married as you have rights that protect you in all 50 states. Domestic partners rights change from state to state.
7) Married couples can bring their husbands and wifes from other countries to the united states. Domestic partners do not get this.
8) Privacy. Married couples get their names listed only at the county level and can ask to have them kept private. Domestic partners have them listed at the state level and in open database that is publicly searchable.

I suppose those differences in rights mean nothing to you. So go on and support prop 8. But don't pretend that they already have equal rights. If your going to vote yes on prop 8 it's because you have a problem with gay people, not their actions.

It's the same as if you voted against women's right to vote, not because you don't love women but you think they're not to be trusted. Either one is a slight against the people.

Using the word tolerance does not make you tolerant, it only acts as an immediate foil to your own intolerant opinion. At least be honest with yourself. Vote no on 8 because your afraid of gay people and gay rights.

Singed,
Martin