Fresno Famous

Personally...

...I feel that if you set and execute a higher expectation for kids (without telling them), they'll usually reach them. While I fall into that first IQ category, I still failed MISERABLY throughout school (then again, so did Einstein). It's all about working with the individual's needs, which is where almost every school falls short.

While my daughter attends the Huggins Center, and was just recently accepted into Bullard Talent, I am still a BIG fan of home schooling. I believe only a truly caring parent can really know the needs of their own child and find a way to teach them. While I must work outside my home at this point of my life, I am making sure that my kid has the BEST education I can possibly get her. The reality is that is our current society, unless you are really wealthy and can sit at home with your kids all day, it's impossible for the majority to do this. How wonderful is it that in some cases, kids are raised with one or both parents at home with them all the time?!? Most of today's families require both parents to work in order to survive, which puts our kids into group day care, group education, etc. When one does not perform just like the rest of the group, they call it ADD and slap a Ritalin band aid onto our kids. It's sad really that such a divisive system is in place…

-s

The percentile of all tested

The percentile of all tested is different than a test score. Tenaya's Gate program suggests that a student score in the top 3%, or 97 or higher.

I can't give you the...

I can't give you the entire National IQ percentage curve for 15 years ago (maybe try Google?), but having attended Manchester the first year it opened ('84) through sixth grade, I do know that their cut off back then was 130 and up. It always has been. That is the requirement for being considered G.A.T.E..

-s

What was the percentage

What was the percentage curve 15-20 years ago?

Here's some figures for ya...

Grade / Range / Percent

Genius: 144 0.13%
Gifted: 130-144 2.14%
Above average: 115-129 13.59%
Higher average: 100-114 34.13%
Lower average: 85-99 34.13%
Below average: 70-84 13.59%
Borderline low: 55-69 2.14%
Low: <55 0.13%

-s

88 qualifies? NO WAY....

Manchester G.A.T.E.'s cut-off is 130 or higher. An 88 or 96 no matter what nieghborhood you are in is just not gonna fly there...

-s

When we first moved to

When we first moved to Fresno, we were told "have your children take the Gate test." My youngest at age 9 got a score of 96 which was too low to qualify, but another child in a lesser neighborhood qualified with 88. The schools in the "richer?" neighborhoods are lacking in enrichment funds also. She worked hard, we worked hard and today she has a PHD.

...I think they're missrepresenting themselves by flaming

I think they need to break the trend, and actually write something in response, ---or at least share their own feelings on the issues, --instead of freaking out that there may be some reading involved...

(However,) I already have my own blog, (thanks for the advice.)

The subjects presented, and the problems at hand, are not easily understood,
nor easily protrayed,
nor easily discussed.

(If they were simple 'soundbite,' issues, they'd be solved by now, wouldn't they?)

scrolled

Are people more likely to be chased away from FF due to long posts that are easily scrollable or anonymous flaming? I tend to think that more people are offended by flaming.

rude

is never cool.
good idea, though, for having personal a blogspot.

if you are going to be insulting,don't hide behind "guest". I see this happen here a lot.
chicken shit.

Scroll past

Is it really that hard to scroll down a long post? The thoughts and ideas being had on this post are appreciated and all you have to do is scroll down to avoid reading too much.

And a third!!!!!!!! !!!!! !!! !! !

OotV is a major reason to avoid FF. OotV, please create your own website and blog the epic blog there.

I second that!!

Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.

George Eliot

take your contrived,

take your contrived, over-conscious, affected writing elsewhere. Did you say anything? Retreat to your drawing room, george eliot

eggads,

..the initial post was long, (it's a deep and personal subject for me,) ---writing what i'd do differently WOULD probably crash the server... (and that is not a goal that I have.)

I think it's multipronged.

There needs to be more teachers, and more good ones.
They need to be prepared against the apathy and the initial war that will be encountered just by being a threat to mediocraty.

I know teachers who pay a ton of out of pocket expenses, and have to pool their allotted reimbursement monies, -just to be able to decorate their room with more than one color of construction paper... (that's pathetic.)
Pay these people more.

There needs to be serious money sunk into programs where kids can find their gifts, get excited about them, and then the parents can be encouraged to see their kids grow, (and maybe grow too.)
-A parent who cannot afford to take the time, -often really can't, so perhaps really carving out 'reimbursed time,' (for lack of a better word,) would help them to attend.

How to teach an entire state, hellbent on competition and focus on self, ---to now care about others?

Even from a medical standpoint, within the past month, I've heard med. professionals question if it was worth it to provide adequate medical care for the dev. disabled, --because they were 'defective.' (their word, not mine.)
---How to get the very people who swear a hypocratic oath to see another human being as 'worth it,' -when that human being may never be a 'contributing part,' of any economic chart, or really known by the community???

-As a Christian, personally? most of the churches I run into out here emphasise how being a Christian is more of a good eternal career move,
---rather than drawing close to a God who calls us to pour ourselves out into the caring of others...
-How to get folks to care about something other than themselves, once having shown that that is the only way to be, IS purely an act of God, (internally,) Because externally, it's like dealing with teflon.

-Speaking about it, confronting it, and showing how much more rewarding it is to care for others, --always works, (but it really is a bit of a trick... Folks start caring because they enjoy caring, --then they realize that the deeper reward is seeing others cared for..)

How to get people to care... ?
(Not let them ignore the situation?
Show them the problem and some solutions so they aren't defeated before they start?
Make it personal?
Maybe show real love and real family, in a healthy sense, which always displaces the unhealthy kind? (You don't need to speak the same language or afford the same groceries and car to recognize someone who loves their kids...)

It starts on individual basis' but it takes people in power, with money, in so many of these scenarios to care. (Sadly, the attitude, 'that who you care for now, may not mug you later.' has some truth to it... I just always hope that there would be a sunnier method and motive.)

That was long.

OotV: You made some good points. People are indeed generally self-centered. It's hard to do for anyone else if your own needs aren't cared for, so I would say this is a good thing, with limits of course. There's a reason flight attendants instruct you to put your own breathing mask on first.

What we're doing now isn't working. What would you suggest we do differently?

EL: The ability to transfer schools means little if people aren't taking advantage of it. Your information doesn't really provide insight, without knowing whether students who take advantage of the program do better. I could go as far as to say those who take advantage are the ones who would've excelled anyway.

www.fresnolution.com
http://www.myspace.com/jghall00

for the kids...

It's only been since moving here to Fresno a year and a half ago, that I've not been working with people, closely, usually involving their education, -and at all points in developing their life skills.
Most of the time (From the Mid-Eighties on to mid 2000's,) I was working with adults and kids who often were classified as 'special,' (be it from medical or dev. disabilities, --or emo. behav. concerns.)
These usually were folks who the general public considers as 'other,' and often don't even see as in the running for a normal life.
(There is a serious movement in other parts of the country and world to enable folks who are disabled (be it phys. or emo. impared,) to function in regular society and have regular lives.)

All of that is worked with on a very basic level, all of it is teaching, all of it is listening and developing a person into finding themeslves, building their strengths, and helping them to 'get on with the show,' of regular life.

I have this habit of talking to kids. I like them. They're cool.
I also have a neighborhood that has kids running around, (when they are not in school,) and have had some great neighbors who had kids.
My neighborhood sucks, by the way, and when my next door neighbors moved for a somewhat safer one, (they had a 12 year old boy, who was a great kid,) I was really glad. (Though I miss them very much.)

When I talk with kids, I like to ask them what it is that they like to do. I like to ask them what they want to be when they get older.
This is extremely important.

Though I think it's important that a kid is 'motivated,' I hear comments that sound like we're blaming the kid for not wanting to participate, (like it's the kids fault,) and it makes me want to puke.

A kid is a kid.
I've spent years with kids who were full on sociopaths at the age of ten. I've had kids that have attacked other people and animals and set things on fire.
-But you know what?
They're still just kids.
Even the ones who have serious issues, (and yes, some of my kids have wound up in juvi- and in jail, unfortunately,) Were kids who you could reach, connect with, and help sort out what it was who they were, if you took the time and really invested in them.
This is not just blowing smoke, This is not just advertising for some liberal plan and optimistic fake dream of the future.
I've had kids that were on the line of some very very bad futures, and, though I cannot claim to have helped them all make it back, (some definitely went over,) I have worked with teams that have pulled a bunch of them into normal life, ---and if you knew them today, (most of which are in their late twenties to mid thirties,) You'd think they were really cool people, and never know that they were nearly goners before their voices changed.

A kid takes all their patterns off of their environment and the adults that are around them.
Yeah, they have their own ideas and own dreams, ---but they are severely influenced by adults, (be they good or bad adults,) and by older kids.
Dramatic things affect them. Repetition affects them, Just being there on a regular level affects them.
Even the 'dumbest,' kid is actually quite smart, and can tell what is going on.
--So when the kids in my neighborhood see their older relatives, -and the bangers in the hood rolling up in bling'd out DUBs, ---they see that and are impressed. When they see someone with a ton of money, and surrounded by 'cool friends,' -from being a dealer? They are impressed. When they see that doing certain things gets their older peers what ever they want, ---or provides them with 'family,' and rearing (even if it is highly illegal,) They are impressed and don't care about the illegality of it. What you show them, and what they understand as cool is what they become.

Kids are kind of funny.
They want your help.
They want you to sometimes show them the boundaries.
Though they want you as a friend, they want you and need you to be a parent, or a mentor, and that means discipline sometimes, that means caring about their behaviors and activities, and interests more than they do, ---because they are the kid, and we are the adults.

Though I won't get into it, and am not looking to attack teachers or other mentors, (nor parents,) I know of issues where teachers who have had the simple task of going with young kids on a field trip, actually choosing not to go, --and pressuring other teachers not to go, ---because it was too hard and such a pain.
-And this was in a situation where there are maybe, what, three or four fieldtrips per year???
Shit, when I was a kid we were going on field trips all the time... sometimes as boring as just to the freakin' park, (how many times can you see a duck...? -but it was 'out,' it was to go somewhere, and it opened my mind to see that learning and life was not my little backwater town in NJ, and even then, there were cool things to do, and an education got you there... (That's a Dog, dogs are cool, you want to build dogs? be a Vet, -and this is a Vet to talk to you about it... Over there, that's a tree, we got 'em all over the place, -you want to build trees? This guy grows and works with Trees, That's a Doctor, That's a Teacher, This guy fixes cars, That person drives a truck, (etc. etc.)

I went to some really high end, and some really low end schools. I went to schools that were religious, and those that had you muttering, 'jesus christ,' as you slammed along the lockers in a fight... What mattered to me were the teachers that took the time to talk to me, and guide me into what my skills were, who talked to any of us despite being loaded with money, ---or wearing the same damn clothes each day that were hand-me downs from someone else at church...
-Our parents talked to us too, our friends parents also gave a rip, it was made very clear to us that what we did, good and bad, was noticed and was to be dealt with accordingly, ---but most of all, that we mattered, and that life itself mattered.
I'm from a single parent low income home, --but, to tell you the truth, I got raised by everybody...
---What happened to that?

I see one really big problem, and as much as this is going to hurt to hear, tough. We're adults, we're surrounded by kids, we make them all the time, and we get to shoulder the truth of the situation.
A kid is a kid.
A kid is a sponge.
If you show a kid nothing, if you give them no future, if you don't break it down to them, and help them to see how their natural gifts are not able to be a part of the big world? It's not their fault, it's yours.
We understand the necessity of 'growing,' trees and plants. We understand the 'training,' of pets.
We don't get that kids take a lot more, ---and really are the only things worth it, --and are beyond comparission to those other things.

A kid is a person, it's not a puppy, it's not a rare tree, it's not some piece of something that you can put a price on, and determine it's value.
-A kid has it's own value, no matter what you think.
A person is priceless, and they cost a lot.
(We, as a self-serving society don't like that...
We'll blow several hundred on a little dog, and then even more on it's care, and clothing...) ---But we dictate it's life, we dictated it's worth, and it makes us feel better. (Same with anything else that we 'own,') Even the environment, ----it's because of how 'we,' feel about it...
---A person? A kid?
No guarantee.
You can raise a kid, and they may not pay you back.
They may not shower you with attention and affection.
They may not be cute, they may not make you proud.
(Still... They are worth far more, just standing there.)
---And to be honest? Love your kid, and care for your kid.
They'll love you back, they do remind you how excellent life is... it just takes time.

Folks don't really get it sometimes.
A person who makes a kid, just accepted responsibility for making that kid. That's it.
To pay a parent, to be a parent? And care about their kids? No.
To help the parents out, maybe facilitate programs where better parenting skills are instilled, -and give the parents tools to help raise their kids, (such as programs where they can be a part of helping their own kid grow in the direction that the kids got gifts in? That's cool. That's the parent and the kid having a mutual relationship, where the parent takes part in the kids building, and the kids life.)
That could use funding, and that could use paid counsellors and programs.
But to just throw money at someone and say, 'here, we're going to pay you to care,' -Simply doesn't work.

I think there's a deeper problem.
I think it's about to bite a lot of people square in the ass, and I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy for the adults who get bitten, either.
Here Goes.

People are raised to be self centered.
People are raised to compete and be number one.
It's the strong and the brightest that are rewarded, it's the high achievers that are praised.
Guess what? Not there are a lot of people in the pack behind spots one, two, and three.
(What happens to those?)

I think people are taught to be in it for themselves, and to have their own interests at heart.
I think they are shown that, unless they focus completely on their own world, and are so into their own survival, that they will not make it.
A kid does not rate nor survive in that world.

I have a news flash.
Kids require an enormous ammount of time.
Kids can be frustrating.
Kids don't always get it the first time.
Kids can be a huge pain in the ass.
-They're kids, they are supposed to be.
They are all full of energy, and wrong directions, and they will exhaust you.
---They are also the coolest thing you will ever find, and will go farther than you ever dreamed of going, (but that's if you take the time to find this out and cultivate this.)

Most folks don't know how to do that.
It's scarey, and I am not broadbrushing those who are professionally caring for kids, -and want to make it clear, and thank my friends who are still in the business of raising and teaching kids,
-But-
There is a lot of burn-out, and a lot of people who are supposed to be teaching and cultivating these kids who don't anymore.

Talk to them and they will tell you that they cannot be both a Teacher and a Parent at the same time, and that it's the parent's fault. (This is true.)
-But there also is a real peer pressure in situations to just maintain and hang on, -rather than really pour onesself out and develop the kids year after year. (Hence the teachers trying to stymi the field trips.)

As this culture and this life grows more about 'Me.'
Kids will loose.
Old people will loose.
The disabled will loose.
-Anyone who is not born and strong enough, to make it on their own, and instinctively rise to the top of it, and survive, ---will loose.

Having a kid, raising a kid, teaching a kid, and seeing them to the age of going on into being a successful adult 'whatever,' (and whatever means profession or career path,) ----takes enormous amounts of time, and effort and all parties who are caring for said kid to pour out and divest themselves.
In other words, having a kid, and teaching kids is sacrifice and means putting them first.

In this world, people are taught, (from being a kid forward,) to care not about each other, but about themselves.
Well, congratulations.
That league of people who wants what they want, when they want it, and however much they can get it, --because they have a 'right to it,' and have competeted and won... ---are now faced with the sacrifice of raising kids.
And they havn't a clue as to what that is about, ---because they were told all along that 'they,' came first.
So their kids loose.
All kids loose.

Now, am I picking on poor people who cannot afford to raise their kids? No.
Do I think programs need to be developed to assist those who really need help and funding to raise their kids? Yes.
Do I think it will happen in this town?
Doubt it.
-Not because the need isn't there. (The need is definitely there.)
-But because those who are strong enough and affluent enough, will always find some way to excuse their arrogance an prejudices by saying, 'well, they should have kept their pants on to begin with,' ---or 'I have enough problems of my own, and have to take little johnnie to his soccer game, I can't care for everybody, and we have too many poor.'

Just like you cannot pay people to want to be parents, (they have to care,) You cannot pay make the wealthy suddenly give a rip about the poor, or about anything outside of their scope. (They just have to care too.)

What will not change, no matter what, and no matter how long or short the discussions are, is this.
Kids need.
And kids will do whatever they can to fulfill those needs.
--So, you want kids to grow up right?
Give them something other than a gang to belong to for 'family.'
--You want them to want to earn a living and be productive in society?
Give them some sort of realistic future and realistic career within reach, and within travelling distance.
Show them that there is future in this town, or they will not believe in one.

There always needs to be new teachers, and those teachers have to be about the kids, not themselves. (I am so grateful for the teachers who are like this, and know many of them.)
The ones who are burnt out? Well, sorry, but it's about the kids, not you... Respect the reasons why you first became a teacher, and step down when you no longer are one. Go out with honor and find other things to do, (don't worry, you will always be teaching someone something, teachers always teach.)
Thank you, good teachers for being good teachers still, despite the wear and tear.

To the parents who care so deeply for their kids?
The Single parents who give up so much 'social life,' and don't even know what the outside world is, ---but are pouring their hours and strength into your kid? You rock. You are the best, and your kids are going to shine and make it because of your efforts. (That I have seen come true for years and years.)

But to the rest of the town, that looks at a kid, or a kids failing 'scores,' or a kids failing 'life,' or a kid that has just gone bad? --and then blames that kid?
You are a selfish fool.
Hopefully, a kid who sees past your stupidity, will one day care for you, and put up with your myopic babbling self, as they wheel you down the hallways, make sure you're fed properly, and are in clean clothes, ---and talk to you, and draw you out of your childlike state, --and engage you, and remind you that you are something, that you are someone, ---and that your life, (even in it's faltering years,) is priceless.
In short?

I hope that there are one of those kids, --who you see no value in now,
---to give to you, what you denied them, when you are as helpless as they are now.

If you don't see that there is nothing better than a kid, and nothing more worth your energy, time, money, and life, (even a messed up kid,) you are blind.

open enrollment

fresno unified has open enrollment, which allows students transfer to any school in the district regardless of their residence. how does this change the aspect of "you'll find that higher income areas generally have high achieving students?"

We agree more than not

It appears that we all agree that individual motivation is the key. I think we would all likely also agree that there is a positive correlation between income and academic achievement, and so motivation appears to be lacking in some low income households.

If you look at census.gov and the state's school report cards, you'll find that higher income areas generally have high achieving students, notwithstanding the general exception to the rule. If kids in schools associated with poorer neighborhoods were all motivated to do well, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Oprah did a show where she took the best student from an inner city school to a suburban school, and the student struggled on an exam the suburban kids had no trouble with. Despite that student's obvious motivation, she was being penalized for attending a school in which not everyone shared her drive. That illustrates the problem I mentioned of the bar being lowered for kids in schools zoned to lower income communities.

As for my proposal to pay parents for participating, I envision them being paid for improvements in their children's academic performance. It would be gauged by completion of regular assignments, participation in school functions, and improving test scores. Testing would be necessary to ensure the parents aren't doing the kids' homework. Perhaps deposit the funds in an escrow account, and when they get a high test score as confirmation of having adequately prepared, they get a bonus added on.

I know many people may have a problem with paying parents to do something they should be doing anyway. It's better than paying for incarceration and extra police because these kids wind up becoming criminals.

where's my motivation?

My opinion is very similar to what has already been said so I won't dwell on it. Motivation is an individual choice--after a certain point. Motivation must first be instilled in the individual in order for the choice to be made. Which brings us back to parents--not teachers.

TVIFL, perhaps it is time to modify your proposal to incorporate the California standards. If the standards are being taught, NCLB will be taken care of. If you believe in your proposal, you need to share it, explore it further, refine it, and publish it. This is the only way change can come.

tcm

education

Your ability to articulate and express your intent is reflective of the nonsense of what has become very trendy to call: "lack of quality education". Is it bad teachers or poor educators in Fresno that account for low scholastic scores? Quite the contrary, in the opinion of this blogger; it is the high number of gangs and low quality parents. Some low income homes have wonderful caring parents and many affluent are effluent as parents.

The word you used to describe your success is motivation. Motivation is an individual choice. The CART school uses that motivation; the program draws on interests that stimulate learning. Learning for lots of people needs to be challenging.

Msvalleyisforlovers, your "local community centered curriculum" proposal would be very interesting to read. Have you have explored means of taking your interest further? Or have you posted your proposal?

Education philosophies

My thinking coincides along the same lines as Jason and Legal Alien, in that so many of those who don't do well in school lack the motivation from their parents, which is really tragic. And maybe it is because their parents don't set high goals for their kids, or because they are too busy trying to stay afloat and raise their families that they don't have time to focus on encouraging their kids' education. However, contrary to many opinions, I have a hard time believing that sending your kids to a school in a more affluent area (hint: Clovis schools) will produce a better education. My K-8 elementary school was extremely low income and had many migrant farm laborers' kids. I was really, like 1 of 2 blonde girls in my class for a very long time. However, I absolutely loved that school. I think I got a great education from there. We had an amazing GATE program and there were so many opportunities for students who showed an interest in learning more. I even had the opportunity to learn all about the forefathers of jazz music, like Duke Ellington and James Brown and so forth (thanks thereminman!--and please, correct me if my perceptions of KR are off) However, when I went on to the private high school I attended (which was mostly white affluent kids), I was shocked at how many people lacked the motivation to try very hard in school and apply to the best colleges and pursue their dreams and amazing careers. I was also surprised at how elitist people can become when all stuck with the same type of people.

In all that, I am basically reiterating the point that the motivation to succeed in school is based more so on the individual themself, or their supporting family and friends, rather than the school (although, I did have some great teachers, and that makes such a huge difference). And also--that a great education is more than just good test scores. The experiences I gained from the diversity at my first school are priceless, and I would not be the person I am today without them.

I really like the idea of paying parents to take an active role in their kids education. However, I think the oversight of a program such as that would be really difficult, because how do you make sure that they are actually following through with it?

My thought is that kids might be more inspired to excel in school if they are more active in the community, where they can work on projects where they can tangibly see results in the community or where they can at least learn about where they live. There are so many benefits to this--one of the most important being that by getting kids acquainted with their local community, it will instill a sense of belonging and pride to that community, and thus they might want to do things to better the community. I wrote a proposal about this idea, that of a "local community centered curriculum", for a class I took last year. Really fun idea, not exactly sure how it could ever get implemented, especially with all of the standards and regulations teachers face today, with No Child Left Behind and so-forth.

Anyhow.

LA: You're right. A large

LA: You're right. A large part of the problem stems from the fact that many parents without education aren't able or willing to stress the importance to their kids. Some do, others think a job is more important. Some households have familial troubles that prevent the kids from focusing on school.

A lot of it is just luck. Are you lucky enough to gain exposure to the possibilities that an education affords? I know from personal experience that a lot of those in the public school system have no idea where they're going. They don't ever have that conversation with their parents. I was lucky that my grandmother worked in the new york public schools, and she put pressure on my parents to people and things outside of the urban environment. A lot of kids aren't that lucky.

I think schools should start paying parents to take an active role in their kids education. It's cheaper than incarcerating them when they wind up becoming criminals.

Not sure about all that

Maybe someday, if ever, when I have kids perhaps my view will change or somthing of the like. For now I know I came from a crappy system and I did well for myself. I'd say it's more in the kid than the school they go to. Beyond that it's the childs parents that need to instill motivation and drive and ambition and help set goals. Keep them looking ahead and forget what the trend is now, secure your spot in a fruitful future first, then worry about looking good or fitting in or what have you.

From the conversations I hear and the encounters I have with kids what I see a lack of is ambition. They don't set their sights very high, if they set them at all.

Diablo

gotta get the kids ...

to Clovis schools.

Is anyone surprised?

I think the study likely mistates the problem. It implies that schools in Fresno are bad, and leaves the efforts of individual students out of the equation. I'm sure a quality education is there to be had, for the student who truly desires it. But, I'm sure the rampant poverty and segregation in Fresno frequently results in poor academic results.

In addition, schools teach to a lower standard when many children are incapable of doing what is expected. Unfortunatly, the secret to getting a quality public education is finding the neighborhood with the highest home values, and getting your kids into the school zoned to that area. Sad, but true.